Love of Literature Foundation Canada - Danielle Norris

Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

Good evening, Danielle Norris. It is so good of you to join us on SpeakUP! International. Now in your bio as a matter of fact, let me begin by saying that your bio is extremely impressive. I would have to live a long time to be able to come up with a bio like that! In your bio, there's something that really jumps out of me. It says that your passion project is called the Love of Literature. Speak to us about that, please.

Oh, yes, oh yes. So the beautiful thing about the Passion Project, it's that thing that you just do and you don't mind how much time it takes, how little sleep you get, how early you have to wake up in the morning to, to, to work on this thing cuz it's just something that you love to do. My profession is actually marketing communications. So I'm, I've been in marketing communications for 15, 16 years. And I love it. I love what I do. I've always worked around education, so working from different school boards to now working with folks in the who are retiring, right? And who also in education sector, but across Canada. So that's what I do now as my nine to five. But what really gets me going, makes my heart. Explode literally is is the love of literature, which is the is the book club. Did you want me to talk a bit about how it started to tell you why it's my passion.

Tell us about what inspired that very innovative project, please.

Absolutely. My husband and I are the proud parents of three Peel kids who've been through the Peel District School board. So that's a school board I went to as a. Literally kindergarten to grade 12, like I was in the school system. I lived on probably three different streets three different streets in the Branton Mississauga area, which is about 45 minutes outside of Toronto. And I went through the system. It's a very diverse area, a very diverse community. But growing up I, I loved to read, but I never really saw myself in the books that I was reading. And the interesting thing about, an eight year old child back in the 80s. You didn't realize that anything was wrong with, never seeing yourself, but something felt off, but you just, I couldn't articulate, I couldn't really put the pieces together. And so our eldest is now, he's graduated, so he is gone through, kindergarten, right through to high school. And we also have our middle guy is 14, our youngest, our daughter is 10, and they're also still in the same school system. And one thing that I found interesting is that not a whole lot has changed when it comes to diversity and literature. And that was something. Something that when this opportunity came up I had to be really intentional about, what, for the eight year old me, for the, a little, the little black girl going to any school anywhere, if I don't see myself in the books that I'm reading at school or even in the community, I wanna have somewhere where I can do that and talk to people about it. That's the best part about reading, is talking to others and getting their opinions and just sharing, swapping stories about it. And that's what I absolutely love. ties back to that thing as a child, growing up and not seeing myself and knowing something's off, but not really sure, kept my finger on it. And as an adult now and seeing my kids going through the same thing, it was like, okay, no one's coming to save us. No one's coming to do anything about this. After 30, 30 plus years, okay let's try something else. Let's try something else now. That's really what kind of started it was recognizing that there's absolutely a need. And just seeing the success of the program in such a short time I'm definitely seeing that there is a need and we're doing my best to fill this gap as best I can.

You talk about three principles on your website, and one of them is;"All books are focused on black characters and black stories." How does that principle aid in the development of our youth?.

Wow, that is such a good point. So what it is when you think about it, representation is so important, right? And when children see themselves in the books that they're reading, it helps'em feel empowered. They feel included, they feel a sense of pride, right? It also helps'em connect to the books and the stories that they're reading. It's just really important that we make sure that this. This is that this is happening. So I intentionally, when it came to this book club I intentionally said, okay, I need to make sure that our children can see themselves. Positive stories even historical stories stories about detectives who just happen to be black or someone with magic who just happens to be black and they're the main character because that's so far fetched for someone to, who's writing a book to to put into context. So that's why it was really important for me to make sure that they see themselves.

It sounds to me as if your philosophy is similar to mine in that we like to connect people to books and books to people. So then tell us, tell our audience, which is the book that you've given most often as a gift.

Which is the book that I give most often.

You've given most often.

That's a good question. I'd say children's books like baby books. Please baby, please Spike Lee and Spike and Tanya Lee. I'm trying to think of another one because whenever I have if there are baby showers, Birthday, that's the number one thing. Everybody gets a book. That's just, that's a given. whatever else comes after. But I'd say the most common, the one that I do the most are definitely children's books. Welcome to the Family, Gabrielle Union. There's a few two that have like if there's a new, someone new coming into the family. So there's an older sibling and there's this new baby, so there's. Always a book that's good for the family to read to the newborn but also if there's a younger sibling or now a new older sibling including books as well that they can do. I can give you a list of a couple off the top of my head. I'm drawing a bit of a blank, but yes, those mostly children books and baby books. Yeah.

I have a fetish for children's books. You may not know, but we owned a bookstore in Toronto from 1995 and many of the books we sold were children's books because, and they were so quick and easy to read. I read almost all of the children's books and it was really fascinating and in our family, I would overhear the children whispering about Auntie Rita behind my back. Guess what she's gonna give you for your birthday. Guess what she's gonna give you for Christmas? You know what you're gonna get from Auntie Rita for your gift. Because it was always books. Because I'm still fascinated with books and children's books and as you said, representation is so critical for children to see themselves represented, not only laity, but also in illustrations. So thank you very much, indeed. We have a lot in common there.

When I went to your website, there was a door I couldn't go in. I guess it's because I'm not a kid. Called members area. On your website, what's behind that door?

Ooh, if I tell you so actually it's actually for, it's actually for our, so whenever a group of readers are registered for a specific term, so we just wrapped up our fall term on last Saturday. And what happens is when everyone, someone is registered in the program, they have access to opening this page and this is where they can get the link for to join our zoom sessions. This is where they can also access our reading schedule because they receive one in the mail, but sometimes, people, misplaced them. So it's just, that's somewhere they can go, a central hub place for them to go just to access the books we're reading and the link to join the session. Nothing super, super fancy. Is this is back there right now.

Nothing mysterious is really behind there, right?

No. Mythical creatures or anything. It's all, it's just access.

So tell us, Daniel, what's the best or most worthwhile investment you have ever made?

I have to say the best investment I ever made was investing in myself. A couple years ago I took a course it was a session for women in in leadership. Oh the name of it is escape me right now. Leader Like Me. Sorry. It's called. Leader Like Me, and it basically is a program for for women of colour to connect and to talk. So if anyone's in leadership positions or they're aspiring to be in leadership positions, a lot of times you don't have someone who looks like you to help you navigate some of these things, right? It's always great. You can have mentors. I have an amazing mentor and there's some things that she can help me navigate, but there are some parts when there's a cultural component it's hard for someone who doesn't have that same lived experience to navigate you through that. So these two. Amazing Priya Ramson and and Ed Vida Patel. Two amazing, phenomenal women who Priya is from Priya, I'm sorry, Priya Bates, sorry. I have Sapi Priya Bates and from Toronto. And Eddi. Ed Vida is in the uk. And this was happening during the pandemic. So it was wild because here I am in this virtual space with women, diverse women of so many different backgrounds, so many different cult of different continents, but we were all experiencing the same thing. And of course different levels for different people, but there was like something common that it was like, wow, I, Eliza, did this happen to me because I am, did this happen Bec, it's not questioning things, but also giving you a platform really find out what are some of these insecurities, what are some of these things that are holding me back? And how to use the support of this group to really propel you forward. And that's one thing that I think as just with my personality and a lot of people who are mothers tend to put their selves on the back burner, take every care of everybody first, make sure everything is okay. All right, there's two minutes left, take a nap and do it again. So it was something very intentional where we set aside time to you know. Go through the activities, log on to the sessions, talk, have these one-on-one moments with Vida to myself and Avita. You can have these moments to really dig into some questions. And I saw a total difference in, in just how I approached life, how I approached my work. It really helped me in Excel in a bunch of different ways. So I'd also helped really to kickstart this with my book club as well, to really take it to beyond just being a small little group that we're just, quietly talking about over here to really putting it out there and doing presentations and workshops, and it's just it's been an amazing and very worthwhile investment.

From the looks of your website, many children, maybe hundreds of children have gone through this program, they all have smiles on their faces. They all look really happy about going through this program all of them have books in their hands. You're really driving home this point about, happy kids are kids that read books. How many children do you think have gone through your program?

Oh wow. I have, I can answer you with exacts. And I have to give you a quick little side story. After I did the whole leadership group a group of my cousins, I have a lot of, I have a big family and we're mostly females around the same age. So we started in an accountability group and we, this was in 2019 and, 2020 and we said, let's keep an eye on what our goals are. Let's make some goals. Let's, really reeling off of off of this and sorry. When I did this, when we did this time to meet up, I went back to my notes I believe it was 2020. Went back to my notes and that's when I realized, I said, Danielle, what I wanna do in 2021 I wanna start a book club. I wanna have two groups and I wanna have 10 kids in each group. And that was my goal when I was getting this started for 2021. And when I look back, like the term that we just finished in December, we've had over 600 kids register for this program from February, 2021 to December. What was the date? December 10th, 2022. That's a lot of kids. And what I love about it is more the feedback. Like when I ask them, what's a word to describe the program? Are you reading more? Are you, do you love reading? Do you know? It's all these things and that's where it really matters. And just seeing them excel and hearing parents send, having parents send me emails about how much this group means to them and how much their child has been reading more and loving it and it's just. Yeah, that's, sorry. Short answer. Yes, it's I'm definitely seeing it. It's been a huge increase in such a short period of time, and the interest is not dying down. Like they're, as soon as it opens, they're registering right away. Like it's almost full before it gets a chance to, before we get a chance to really get everybody all in there. So yes, short answer and long answer

But when you got started, it was going to be a face-to-face, a Lifebook club, that wasn't it? And then COVID gave you no alternative but to transition and to pivot online. Am I correct?

Absolutely. So it started in 2017 as a face-to-face, and I had a group of eight or 10 girls. If you see on my website, this's, a group of a standing outside of the knowledge bookstore, an amazing Afrocentric and diverse bookstore in Brampton, Ontario. And so we were, we we started meeting there just in small groups. And then we had a group of boys. My husband's an athletic trainer, so at the time the boys would go to his gym and we'd, they'd run around, get the energy going, and then we'd sit, have snacks and talk about books. And it was just, I don't know how to explain it, short of magical. Like it was just something to see them light up and just love it. And then when COVID came around, I was like, oh my gosh, how are we gonna keep this connection going? How are we gonna, what are we gonna do? And so when the opportunity, I was like, I'm just gonna do it. Let's make, turn it into a nonprofit. Let's put it online. If I get at least, I don't know, 10 kids, I'll be fine. And little did I know, little did I know. Our first session, we had maybe 30, or 30 or so. K about 30 kids. And I was like, whoa, okay. I need some help. So I can't do these by myself. Yeah, that's definitely, that's, I've been definitely seeing the growth with that.

I must say that I'm more than happy to be one of the facilitators. And what impresses me most about what happens on a Saturday morning is that the readers read, it's a book club, but the children read the books that are assigned to them. And for me as an educator, I feel it's really important. It's really critical for children to read out loud because sometimes people don't know. People have never heard their own voice and they've never heard to. To me, that's a huge advantage for children to sit there and hear each other reading. And even though some of them may not be as strong a reader as the other, it is an opportunity for them to learn and to learn how to say the words and those kinds of things. So I'm particularly impressed. I'm particularly impressed, I. With that. So obviously Danielle is very busy. I can see that her plate is full. She's usually doing so, so many wonderful things with her life. So how does she take, how does she take care of herself?

In the s slivers, the moments that I do try to intentionally, set time aside to read. I, and here's the thing, right? Cause most books I read are children, I love them, right? Are young adult novels. I'm a sucker for those, right? But there are times where I have to like, okay, I need some more adult interaction. I need some more adult books. We used to have a book club for women. We ran it for seven years. It was called Women Wine and Words, and it was such a collection of sisterhood. We just read, we'd eat, we'd drink, we'd talk about books, we'd meet up monthly. Like it was amazing. And that was my escape, that was my happy place. Right now it's just finding moments when I can to just try to unwind a little bit. Like I said, a good book is always welcome. Just watching movies with my kids going out for going up to eat with my husband. Just things that are just, that people just do all the time that they're like, that is not a rat relaxing goal for me. for me it is because I don't really, I don't really make the time to do those things, so I know how important it is to make memories and have, to do these things too. So that's why I try, when it comes to it, I just try to find ways. Take it down a little bit. Don't have my phones open, close my computer, put away my planner. So I don't look at, I'm tempted to look at like things to do and just be present. Be present in the moment. That's something I'm definitely working on, and that actually makes me really happy.

I wanna go back to something that you were talking about earlier, and that was about reading books that were impossible to identify with and I remember growing up with Fun with Dick and Jane and wow! I never thought about it. I never gave it much thought, but how far was that away from reality? Not only just because of cultural differences, but just because it was just so far fe, so far fetched, no one, no kids lived that kind of life and this is what we had to use in order to in, in order to read. You talk about the love of literature, the foundation, and it provides a safe place for youth to connect with peers and review black focus books with relatable themes. How do you explain the terms safe place to a parent?

Oh, that's a great question. That is a great question. And what's, I'm gonna, I'm, I'll answer that question with one of the responses that our kids gave. So we asked them, how do you feel about book club? How do you feel about it? And one of, I think it's one of the kids of my seven or eight year old age seven and eight said it's like a family. It feels like family. And I was like, Okay, give me a minute. because every time we connect and we, it's upfront, Hey, we are here, we're all friends. This is a space for us to learn together, to read together, and to grow together. And when I have a lot of, you mentioned a lot of young folks who have issues with reading. I remember I had this one young man who like, I have a stutter who's always asked. As Ms. Rita was saying, we always ask them to read. Everyone get a chance to read. And he said I have a stutter, so I don't like to read. I, but I wanna try. And we, right away were like, okay. And it's a small group. We have about up to 10 kids in each individual room. And I, right away I was like, listen, I need you to know everybody here. We're all here for each other. We're all here to help. No one's making fun of anybody. Nobody's, we're all here to do this together. And when I tell you he read every single session, we told him, take your time. Slow down. Because when you're in a classroom setting, it's next. Like it's so rushed. They don't have time to process and sometimes they're intimidated to want to jump in because they're nervous about how they're reading. It's like you said, some of don't even hear themselves. So when I say a safe space, it's a place where we come in and we talk about these books and you don't have to worry about the other kids in the group who are not black. Are they gonna think, what I said was weird is this is what I'm saying. You don't have to second guess yourself. You know that you're in a space where everyone is we're here to help. And a lot of things have blossomed out of these sessions. Sometimes we're talking a book, we're talking about a book and something like, really, it'll be something really serious that comes up and they will share and say, this happened to me. If someone is being bullied and other kids in the group are sharing, oh, when this happened to me, this is what I did. These are like 10 year olds, right? 10, 11 year olds and they're giving advice and talking to each other and one thing that I love about it is we have black facilitators. Our facilitators mainly try to mix it to have that we have our black male facilitators with the boys and our female facilitators with the girls because there are some experiences that come up in some of the. Where you need to talk about it. And I find that they are just so comfortable and they feel so free to talk about whatever it is. And that's why it's so important that these spaces remain safe. It's an affinity space. So this is where they can come and we can talk about it with each other. We can read together. No judgment, no. It's anyone, black Caribbean African heritage. You come this is a space for us. And what's interesting about it as well is there isn't anything like it anywhere. Like kids can join groups, book clubs, they can do whatever. A lot of times though, there aren't a lot of black kids in these groups, because other people have these I don't wanna say advantages, but they already know all these things to be a part of'em, and they're in them. They fill up the rooms first, fill up the space. And that's fine. But what I'm saying is when it comes to our black children, I'm like, I need you to. That you are loved. This is a space where you are welcome. We say it in the morning. When we start, we listen to the Black National Anthem. And it's sung by these three little kids who sing it. Oh my gosh. It is amazing. I'll send you a link, but it's it just gets us started to say, okay, we're here for each other. There's nothing and like I said, we protect this space, we protect it, and it is so important that all the readers and our educators are of our, from the community, because it really helps to make them feel like I've got adults who are looking out for me. I've got all my friends here looking out for me as well.

For me, for me, the word safe is synonymous with comfort level and feeling a sense of belonging and realizing that no one is here to judge and so you could you could be the person that you truly and really are, warts and all and there'll be people there who are watching your back and supporting, encouraging because they want to see you grow and actualize and be the person that you're really supposed to be. So to me, that and I felt that kind of ambience and that kind of atmosphere we spend time with those children, with those readers, with those Saturday, every Saturday and Elton, this may be a good time for Danielle to try to recruit you for saturday books.

I'm just saying, I'm just saying, Mr. Elton, if you are, if you're looking to spend a, here's the thing about it, right? Everyone who everyone who comes out we're doing an information session tomorrow actually for new volunteers. We wanna volunteer. But whenever you join for the very first time, I always warn everyone and say, listen, when all the squares start opening up and you have three pages of little faces, these black faces, and they're just so excited and just ready and waiting. Some of them are in the waiting room, like 30 minutes, an hour before we even start because they just don't wanna miss the anthem. They don't wanna miss a minute and I've had a few people when the facilitators turn their screens off, I know what's happening. You're just getting your tears away and you're getting ready because it's such a feeling of joy. You're like, wow, here's our kids. Here's our future. We're Im, I'm spending an hour on Saturday and that means so much to them. It means so much. Some of those kids are the only black kids in their. They don't have any other black friends. Like it's wild. And to know that there's a space that they can come and when they, I'm telling you, when these, when our facilitators get to meet them, it is just, I don't know, I used the word magical already, but I'm just saying it's something to, it's something to behold and it feels that, I feel that every Saturday, every session.

Wow. Wow.

It's amazing.

I know. Growing up as a kid, I'm a product of what they call busing that was a time when we felt the white schools had the best educators and we were left with what was left over and I got bused to an all white school and for years, my friends were all white. They were not black to the point. I have problems dealing with my own kind because I've really not opportunity to interact with them. So I do understand the importance of being with your own kind. I'm not saying that you should not interact. I'm not saying that because it's important that you do. It's important that you're able to speak that language. Or you won't get anywhere. But it's you need to have roots. And it sounds like your organization actually provides that. I do have a question though. What happens if you get a kid in there and they don't wanna read? Maybe their parents forced them. Said you better get your behind in there and, cause if you don't, you know when you get outta. There's gonna be some medicine waiting for you and so they come on in there and they sit down and they don't wanna read, they don't wanna even look at you in the face. How do you deal a kid like that?

You know what's interesting? The book club is, it isn't it's not like an edu it's not a program. It's a, it's not a program in a sense of we're teaching you how to read. We're really trying to help to instill that love of reading. So we always get some kids who are avid readers, they read thousands of books, all they read books all the time. But now we're just adding more black books. But there are also some who are like I don't like reading. I don't wanna read because all the books they've been introduced to are boring. Which is true. Some of the books do they get through school? So they are already coming in with that idea of, I don't want to read. And what I'm finding is there. We try to give a range of books. So we always have a graphic novel. It's a graphic novel is always included. Then I always have two novels. This is from my seven year old right up to my 18 year old. We always include a graphic novel because sometimes I find that it helps to bring, helps to ease the transition into reading. They've got the pictures, they sometimes it's like a Black Panther or Miles Morales or just something that will just get them, okay, let me see this right, and kid you not, that literally is the hook almost every time, like 99% of the time that definitely works because you're finding something, one that they're interested in, right? And you're delivering it in a way that is fun. So every week when we meet, we talk about what we just read. So some of the kids at first, they'll be like they'll slack off or they won't read, but then they recognize on Saturday, oh my gosh, we have to talk about this. So I'm gonna read. And I actually had a parent say, my son used to just read, when I tell him to read, he just speed read. He wasn't reading and retaining his inform. But he, since he joined the book club, I noticed that when I ask him about the books, now he's telling me, because he knows you have, it's that comprehension, right? It's connect that connection to that. He knows that we have to talk about it. We're gonna talk about what happened in the first four chapters of this book, and I need you to tell me what you learned. And it actually also had one of my high school my high school. To start the class, the group, we said, tell us why you're here. So some said, oh, I wanna just, introduce to new books. I'm looking for some really cool, black authors. And one this young man said, I'm only here because my mom forced me and I don't wanna be here. And I said, you know what? I appreciate your honesty. This was day one. Okay, take follow me. I said, okay, no problem. You know what? Let's get into it and when I tell you he was the most engaged the most questions, the most, and this is like high school people who are usually cameras off typing in the chat. Like you'll get that sometimes, but there's still that engagement, And when it came to the end of the term, he was asking, oh, can we still, so are we still meeting next Saturday? Can we still keep the conversation going? I'm going to college, can I come back? So sometimes it's just finding that hook. And of course there are always gonna be some who don't want to read, but the beauty of the book club is we mail them the actual books, the hardcopy. Could be audiobooks eBooks are great, but sometimes there's something about just holding a book in your hands.

Yes.

And just smelling the pages and like it, you have to actively engage. You can't do anything else when your hands are holding a book. Even if they don't read it today, right? It's on their bookshelf and they may pick it up another time. It's giving them that opportunity and they're like, you know what? Let me check this out. So motivating them is always finding something that they're interested in is a good way to, those who are not interested in reading, you at least get them hooked for that one and then when they see the conversation, they wanna read the next. So that's a, that's my...

There's no question that your bio begins. Talking about your passion for the love of literature club, and I feel that passion oozing outta everything you say and your expression. So it's truly wonderful. So our goal or aim for this particular podcast, Is to educate, inspire, inform, and elevate. And there's no question that you are doing all of those things today for our readers and for us, Elton and myself. So before we bring our session to a close, I would like you to tell us stellar audience, what is the best piece of advice would you say you've ever been given?

It's more of a quote when I say advice because it's, I wish I knew Ms. Tony Morrison personally, but I didn't get opportunity to know her. But the advice I take is in her quote I wanna write, say it word for so I don't mess it up. But if there's a book you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it and I actually put this quote at the front of all of our journals for our readers, and they see it all the time. And I attribute this to my even exploring this book club. Nothing like this exists. This is the only one in Canada, the only nonprofit book club for black youth ages seven to 18 in Canada. That is mind blowing in 2021 wow 2022 we're going in 2023. There's no black book. No one thought that black kids would wanna read books with themselves. So because something doesn't exist doesn't mean that it doesn't have to right? Just because that's how it's always been. You make it so you see a need, you feel the need, and you just make it happen. So I think when it comes to advice, I'd say that's a quote that I honestly hold really close to my heart because it just speaks to, it speaks to the idea of opening your mind to possibilities, right? The CN tower didn't, wasn't always sitting there. Somebody saw, oh, why don't we, right? And you work it out. How do we put this in? You do the logistics, but you just gotta see what is it that's, it's not here. I'm looking for this. Our kids go into a, go into Amazon, they go into libraries. They don't see books with black characters unless it's Black History Month. Then they're all over the store. But when it's a regular time, you can't find any books. So I said, you know what? I'm gonna do these books to you. I'm gonna give them to you. These are some really good suggestions and so far we always have, I wanna say four or five out of five star with the books that we've had so far, and it's been a number of books. And I'm so happy to say we had just one that was like, or one or two that had like really low reviews, but that's okay. I understand, I knew where I went, I knew where I went off with those ones, but it's all about trying new things, right? Learning and reading and just making things happen. It's something that you're passionate about and something that you strongly believe in. It's up to you to make it happen. No one's gonna, no one's gonna save us. No one's coming in. I can't wait for the government to do this or the school cause they would've done it already. And I'm still waiting.

Danielle, I have to say, this conversation has been exciting! I found it to be inspirational and it makes me wanna go out and read 10 children's books.

I got some suggestions depends if you're, is it high school kind of reading books? Are you looking it also depends what you're into. If you literally will read anything, I definitely have a couple that you might enjoy. Okay. Let's start with, okay, let's. Children of Blood and Bone. Have you heard or seen it this one yet?

No, I have not.

Okay. You see how thick this one is? Our high school kids read this in at one term this year, and I had to tell them when they opened the box. I was like, listen, don't freak out. We're gonna read it little sections at a time. We're gonna get through this, don't worry. But this is basically. Where magic is, the magic is in this dividing communities. And this is in futuristic Nigeria, somewhere in Africa and it's basically where the royals are trying to get rid of all people with magic and of course, when you try to do that, of course there's always an uprising, that kind of a thing. And so the way that you magic is you're born with white hair. So they basically went on a rampage trying to get rid of everyone with magic, but some managed to conceal themselves and this entire thing ensues when someone from Magic meets up with someone from the Royals and they just gotta figure a whole situation out. But, oh man, Children of Blood and Bone and there's a part two and it's supposed to be a movie. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to get in there and say, get in there and Okay. Rita, she nodded her head. She knows about the book. I'll ask Rita to, email me the particulars and then I'll go pick up the book. Again I wanna say thank you for this conversation. I think that individuals, our audience that hear this conversation. They will be motivated if they have children, I think that the children should listen to this podcast in order to become excited. I'm hoping a year from now the three of us have another conversation to find out exactly what's happened since the last time we talked. I'm going to wish you a wonderful holiday season. Happy 2023, and we'll talk again very soon.

Really appreciate your being here. It's been very enlightening. Very enlightening. Thank you so much, Daniel.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Take care.

Thank you for listening to speak up international. For more information about our guests, Danielle Norris and her professional services, please visit her website at loveofliteraturebookclub.ca. Would you like to be interviewed by us at SpeakUp! International? Please give us your contact information, email, address your name and company name and forward it to info@speakuppodcast.ca. To listen to our podcast using Spotify or your favorite podcast platform, search for SpeakUP! International. You can also find our podcasts using our web address. www.speakuppodcast.ca. Our logo has the lady with her finger pointing up mouth open. Speaking UP! Thank you.