Re-engaging Immigrants and Racialized Students into Canadian Higher Education with Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi, PhD

[00:00:00] Elton Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:17] Rita Burke: As you are aware, on SpeakUP! International, we aim to, we strive to, educate, inform, and inspire. The story coming from our guest today will do just that. We will be speaking with, uh, Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi  , who has a passion for guiding marginalized youth, particularly.

He also is interested in helping people to tell their stories, to learn about themselves through writing. He's an educator. He's, uh, curious about social and emotional aspects of learning and he's currently the lead person in a transformative writing Masterclass. Meet our guest today, Mr. Syed Ali Nasir.

[00:01:10] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Thank you very much. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be in this program. And, uh, I'm glad that, uh, I made it. And thank you very much for the invitation.

[00:01:19] Elton Brown: 

I am so glad that you were able to make it today, to spend time with us, to actually talk about some of the things that you are most passionate about. How can universities better support the unique needs and challenges faced by the LGBTQ students, particularly those who have experienced homelessness or incarceration.

[00:01:44] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Uh, see, this is a good question. Uh, if we look at the community builders, uh, in, in, in the communities, for example, uh, GTA, uh, for example, or the urban education centers, okay. Those who are in, in, in Ontario. So they have like a responsibility. I am a big believer of Involving higher education and because higher education is well structured space.

It has lots to offer and it has more in its, you know, system. So, in order to like, you know, thrive, uh, whatever, like, you know, your orientation is. Either you are a racialized person, you are L-G-B-T-Q, you belong to any faith group, so you name it. Okay. It's better that like, you know, you should first make it to higher education.

And if you are able to, and there are so many, you know, avenues and pathways to come to the higher education. And we have got lots of, you know, uh, great university in Ontario, uh, which are offering great programs. Okay? So, uh, it's, it's, it's better for, uh, those who are, you know, voiceless. Okay. They should come to the higher education.

They can come to colleges. They can come to, uh, you know, we have a total of six colleges in Ontario. Okay. More than that. So 26 universities and we can, uh, you know, engage the youth and when they come to the programs in the universities, because it's, it's quite well structured and they can, they have their, you know, these groups will help them to grow.

So, so, so as you, as you, as you ask me the question about the, uh, LGBTQ, I think it's, it's very much important that first they come to higher education and if I'm not saying like, you know, it's a must thing, but it is something that, you know, they will feel safe because it's a very safe space. And that will, uh, sort of, you know, put them on a launching pad into their careers, into their, like, you know, uh, into voicing their concerns, you know, whatever the concern they have, because it is well structured space.

[00:03:51] Rita Burke: Saeed, you refer to higher education. You see value in higher education for everyone, but particularly for people. Who are labeled marginalized, could you please expand in the term higher education for us, please? 

[00:04:12] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Okay, so if you, if you look at the higher education, when we talk about the higher ed, we talk about the universities and the colleges.

Okay. And these universities and colleges are well placed in Ontario. So I'll just like, you know, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll give you sort of, uh, Uh, you can, you, you, you can say, uh, it is something we need to, we need to understand, uh, what, what, what are, what, what is the most important thing? Is that higher education is well structured.

Okay. And it has it lot to offer if you, if you go to any university, any college, okay? They have got all the groups. Okay. And when we come to these groups, or they're what you call the clubs, these clubs will promote their safety and their concern, whatever the concern they have, like, for example, you know, there is a black youth alliance in colleges.

Okay. And then now they're anti racist pedagogies, like, you know, uh, chairs, like, you know, across Ontario. So, so if you, if you, if you look at the higher education, higher education is quite robust in Canada. Okay. Okay. And if you look at Ontario, we have got like, you know, top universities and and if you, if you, if you look at like, you know, the, the structure they have, they are well connected with the employers, they're well connected with like, you know, NGOs and well connected with in a nonprofit or government organizations.

So what we need to do as, as, as, like, for example, if a person from the marginalized background is coming into, uh, the, the higher ed, okay, they should first. Connect with their own groups. Okay. Once when, once they are connected with their groups, they can like, you know, find the possible endless possibilities of their success.

So, so for me, it's very much important if you look at the higher ed from that perspective. Otherwise, if you come into higher ed and you are just like, you know, taking your courses, what happens mostly when a student come to higher ed, they find sort of mismatch. Okay. So they're unable to find meaning, okay?

And what they do, they just like, you know, look meaning outside. What I call my student mostly, now think in this way, a student coming into my class, and when this student is coming into my class, he's in a hurry to go to his job, okay? That is fine, you don't, it's, it's, it's not a big deal, you should go for your job, but the thing is that you're compromising your future for your present.

Okay. Higher education is a place where you can find lots of answers, by the way. And if, if, if you are well connected, your future will be like, you know, uh, bright. But what happens to students when they come to higher education? They think that, oh, it's just only, you know, taking courses. I have got like, you know, for example, in my, uh, college.

you have to finish 30 courses. If you look at the undergrad, you have to finish, you know, 40 courses, okay, 40 credits. And when you finish these 40 courses, and then again, you're lost. Oh, I didn't know what I've done. So, so they need to like, you know, understand the structure of their college or the university well.

When they know the structure of the college and the university well, then, you know, they can find sort of, you know, collaboration and connection, because these kids, those who come to or the student, those who come to these, uh, like spaces, contemplative spaces, I always call them, they are unlike, you know, intendedly what you call, uh, able.

To find sort of, you know, answers and then they go and they find the answers outside, which is like quite brutal, the outside, the spaces outside. So it's better that like you find, you connect with your professor, you connect with your, you know, uh, colleagues or the clubs that will give you the answers.

[00:07:55] Elton Brown: You know, one of the things that you talked about earlier was the fact of the importance of education and I truly believe that that everyone needs to. Move up and not just drop it when they finish. Let's say high school. Yeah. And then you talked about the many avenues and pathways for educational advancement.

Does any of those pathways include financial support? 

[00:08:24] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Exactly, exactly. So, so for example, that's a very good question. Uh, when a student come like, you know, there are so many bursaries available to these students. Okay. And, uh, the student like, okay, I'll, I'll give you one of the examples of my students.

Okay. She was in my class and, uh, she was in robotics class. Okay. And, uh, I asked her like, you know, what you do. So she said that, you know, I'm, I'm working. Uh, in a restaurant. Okay. And, uh, I say, fair enough. And how I ask her, like, you know, how much time you spend there. So she said, I spend like, you know, let's say 40 hours, you know, per week.

Sometimes like, you know, it's more than that. I said, do one thing. Just focus on like, you know, remove 10 hours. From your workload from your like, you know, restaurant, uh, job and dedicate your 10 hours like sincerely to your college. Then she started focusing on that. She listened to my, you know, advice then after like, you know, a few months, she came up to me and then she said, you know what?

Uh, teacher. I just want to explore more about that. I say, Yeah, that's good. So I connected her with the people, you know, within my college and within my space, and she got a bursary. I think it was 3, 000. So that was sort of like, you know, Uh, advice I gave her, she moved these 10 hours and she dedicated these 10 hours into college and because of her grades going up, she got the bursary.

So it is just like a balance. This is just one example. And if you, if you look at like, you know, uh, there's so many, uh, partnerships within like, you know, uh, colleges and outside, you know, uh, corporates. These partnerships also evaluate your performance. I have lots of a student like, you know, those who come to my classes and then when they go outside, uh, they find, you know, better opportunities because they are well placed, but they know the system they have dedicated their time to it.

Um, and and and and and their hours to their studies. Well, if you create a disconnect, like, you know, if you focus more in your jobs, and you are not focused on your studies, I think that will be a problem. So so there's so many opportunities within the college. As I told you, like, you know, financial aid.

There's so many bursaries. There's so many, like, you know, partnerships, you know, corporate partnerships. There's so many families, like, you know, great families. They're also giving sort of scholarships. In the name of their, like, you know, family members. So, so if, if we, if we, if we tap into these opportunities, like, you know, wisely, I think a student can succeed and especially the marginalized student, like the lad right now, lots of opportunities.

[00:11:11] Elton Brown: There is a wall I find for modularized individuals who do seek higher education, because they don't know from the outside looking in, they don't know where the opportunities lie, specifically financial scroll. Support. So from the outside, how would an individual or marginalized individuals be able to tap into those 

[00:11:40] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: resources?

Okay, that's, that's a very good question. See, I think it's, it's, it's very much important to first, like, you know, connect with the, uh, the, the, the, the university or the college where you live in the community. Okay. And if, if you know the college, for example, if you're in Toronto, so there are so many colleges in Toronto and universities, so you first go and talk to the advisors or the admissions people.

And once you talk to these admissions people and advisors, you know, they will sort of, you know, place you, uh, in, in, in the, in the, in universities. And, and then you start like, you know, looking for the networking opportunities, okay, once you look at the networking opportunities, what will happen, there are like, you know, people, those who are there, they will help you.

And I can give you like, you know, my class example, and I was teaching like one of my students, she's, you know, came to me and then she asked me about, uh, and she was like, you know, that was her, you know, breakdown. And she was unable to move forward because of the workload, because of so many other things.

I said, you need to do one thing first. Go and seek help for mental health. Okay, she went to the mental health and she got sort of like, you know advice from there So so once you are in the space, then there are endless opportunities and possibilities Okay but if you are outside the space you won't be able to you know tap into you won't a you won't be able to Explore these opportunities what is?

Uh, inside like, you know, particular college or particular university. So first of all, I think they should step into and I'm encouraging. That's why I'm like, you know, my, my also, uh, activism and advocacy is also re engaging the higher, like, you know, youth into marginalized youth into higher education because higher education is going to structure their, you know, mindset is going to structure their careers.

[00:13:28] Rita Burke: 

What I'm hearing from you. Is the fact that you see these learners, these students, I call them learners as whole beings, and they can't be compartmentalized. They can be put into little silos. You have to look at the whole picture if you want their ultimate outcome to be positive.

Now, you referred to voiceless. You used the term voiceless. How does one become vice voiceless? 

[00:14:01] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Oh, that's, that's. I, you know, once if you, if you look at the structure of the society, okay, and if we look at, uh, let's say, Canada, okay, we are, uh, fortunate enough that, uh, we are living in a democracy. Okay. But democracy doesn't mean that it has Uh, offering, uh, to everyone, like, you know, voiceless people, you will find I can be voiceless if I'm unable to express my, you know, concern if I'm unable to express my, you know, emotions, uh, well, uh, for, for a student or the marginalized student who are voiceless.

They are basically, they are, you know, trapped. They are, you know, anchored in their own perceptions. Once they are anchored in their own perceptions, it is very difficult for them to break free from, from the mindset that they have developed. So first of all, the first and foremost thing is that they need to connect with the community within.

Okay. Because community is going to help them. And if They're unable to, like, for example, I am teaching one, uh, master class, writing master class, and I have you, like, you know, those who are homeless, they are incarcerated, they are on probation, they are, uh, on, on different, like, you know, uh, things. And they have been referred to the, you know, justice department.

So what I teach them, first thing is you need to talk, you need to find your space, writer space. Once you find your writer space, you need to start, you know, voicing your concerns, okay. But in a very candid way, in a very gentle way. And from there, you try to. Start looking at the opportunities which are available, not only to you, but also to the like, you know, uh, your group and voiceless people.

Like, for example, when, when we look from our perspective, okay, I might say I'm a, you know, teacher, I'm a professor. Oh, you know, I, I'm, I have my voice, but if I'm not, you know, raising concern in the class.

I am voiceless. So first of all, we should know what is my, uh, right, uh, orientation in terms of teaching. Okay. If I am, uh, if I'm a teacher who is trying to promote, uh, anti racism, if I'm a teacher who is trying to promote the, you know, modernization, like, you know, they should, they should end to, uh, anti racism.

They should put an end to marginalization. So the voiceless people you will find in the society. Okay, and these people are living within us. So first of all, we find how can be like, you know, how can be voicing or concern. Okay, that's the most important thing. If you are unable. We will not be. So the right answer is again.

Let me go back to my first argument, which is we need to focus on the higher ed. You come into the higher ed, you find your groups, you find your circles of, you know, communication. And from there, you start developing your habits of mind, which are, you know, consistency, persistency, curiosity, you know, humor.

And then from there, you develop all all your skill set and then you start, you know, talking about it. The issues that you are facing. And let me just like, you know, end this into, into, uh, into an anecdote. Uh, the, the voiceless, uh, I had my student from Michigan. He was in my nursing class.

And this kid came to me and he was feeling really overwhelmed and he came to me and he attended his first three classes and then he was absent and then he came, uh, let's say, I think it was lecture nine or 10. Then he said it like, you know, professor, I am, uh, feeling really overwhelmed. I'm unable to, you know, I say, I know you missed like, you know, three, four classes.

That's okay. But what is, you know. What is what is causing you to, uh, not engage in this community of learners? Then he said that, you know, I feel, uh, helpless. I feel like people say that, you know, I'm a failure. I say, see, this is, this is your perception. You're anchored in your perception of failure. You need to break free from that thing.

So I, I told him how to break free from that particular mindset. Okay. And then he started developing his habits of mind. And from there, right now, he's a full nurse. He's doing job in Michigan, Detroit. So, so we need to first break free from the perception that we have developed. And it is, you know, uh, particular to anyone.

It's not me. It's not you. It's not, it's not to like any student, by the way. So 

[00:18:55] Elton Brown: We talked about having a voice and how to develop this voice. So the question to me, which is twofold one where do you go now once you develop your voice within the educational system, how do you project it. And the second part of this is that I want to know the distinction between technical communication and cultural English and why is that very important to international students.

[00:19:30] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: That's, that's, that's, that's an interesting question. It relates back to the communication pattern. Last night, you know, I was in a TV program and we're talking about the social media. And, uh, they're like, you know, uh, we, we discuss a bit about, uh, the communication thing, uh, see those students who come to the higher education or those who come to the classes, they are, uh, unable to distinguish between, you know, the nuances of communication.

Communication is quite, you know, subtle. Communication can be cultural, communication can be political, communication can be religious, communication can be economic, you know, communication. So it's, it's like, you know, but when you look at these distinctions, like, you know, when you look at it is cultural, it is economics, it is, you know, mathematical.

So this is called what we call the technical communication. And if you look at the cultural communication, which is again, sort of like, you know, we have got all the media involved in this cultural communication and that media, try to, you know, change your perception. Okay. From their lens and whatever the lens the media is offering, then we have to adopt that particular.

So when these students, like, you know, when they come. They first know that what is the most important thing they are doing. So, for example, if a student is coming and they are doing, let's say, nursing course, they are doing, let's say, uh, computer science, they are doing, let's say, any particular degree. They first need to understand that the courses they are taking, they should be well connected.

Once they are well connected, then what will they do? They will develop, you know, their communication set, skill set around this particular topic. That will be their voice. So, for example, if I am very much interested in anti racist parable, if I am very much interested in like, you know, marginalization to demarginalize, I would say, so what I will do, I will like, you know, try to look at like, you know, who are the great theorists.

Like for example, Cornel West, I'm just like, you know, Kimberly Crenshaw, then I have got like, you know, uh, Derek Bell, like, you know, these are the people I will, I will read their like, you know, books and I'll try to develop sort of, you know, my mindset or what they are talking about, you know, and then I will look at the nuances of like the information and when I'm in my space, I'll try to like, you know, communicate well.

And then I'll try to connect the dots. So same thing is with the nursing student if they are in nursing courses What are the most important things? So for example, I had one, uh student She was you know from the indigenous background and she was saying that like, you know I cannot connect with what is happening in the classroom Uh in these classes not my classes like in in other classes I said i'm unable to connect because and I said, uh, and then she said to me she said you know what?

I think it's not very much, you know Uh, close to my heart. That's why I'm unable to connect with the, the information that is being delivered. So I said, I know you're right, but try to find meaning like, you know, within that particular, you know, uh, cause. And then I, I, for example, so she sat with me, I said, like, look at this connect the dots with your indigenous people, like, you know, how they are being treated, you know, in terms of medical facilities in Canada.

Then once you started developing sort of like, you know, her mind, I say, now do one thing, write paper on that thing. So, so that was a, you know, sort of light bulb woman for her, and then she structured her thought around that particular topic, and then she started writing on that, and then when she came out, I said, now tell me about like, you know, how you feel.

I see. I feel very much, you know, relieved. I said, and I have released my all like, you know, emotions on this paper. It's just like, you know, thinking like, you know, on the paper. I say, yeah, I know. And now where are you going? By the way, then she said, like, you know, see, since I found my voice. Yeah. Okay, through the medium of writing, through the medium of, uh, particular genre.

Okay, uh, I have incorporated all these structured thought into the paper. Now I know what is my next step. I say, what is your next step? I say, I'm going to finish my BSCN and then I'm going to help my indigenous people. Like, you know, and then I'm trying to find like, you know, what are the medical anomalies happening in Canada and other places so that I can like, you know, voice my concern.

So let me correct. Again, back to the idea of like, you know, how can we voice our concern? We can voice our concern when we are well structured in our mindset, we can. 

[00:24:06] Rita Burke: So I'm hearing. I'm sorry for interrupting, but I'm hearing that you, one of your response, you see one of your responsibilities is helping students to connect dots.

And that's what learning is about, isn't it? Connecting dots. But you also referred to, you also referred to books. And I'm curious about textbooks that are used. Talk to us, tell our listeners about relevance or what your thoughts are about textbooks that are prescribed and recommended for some of the courses, please.

[00:24:46] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: That's really, uh, critical, very critical in higher education right now. Higher education is consuming the knowledge which is not appropriate. That is the most important thing. And as a result, uh, higher education is. Everywhere it is, you know, it's sort of, you know, facing crisis, uh, it has like, you know, lots of things, but the, the, like, when I look at from the courses.

It is sort of like, you know, the textbook, the textbook is in every course. If you go to the graduate classes, you have the textbook. If you go to undergrad classes, you have the textbook. If you go to the college course, you have the textbook. So, I started thinking, like, you know, I'm questioning my, uh, teaching habits.

I say, like, why am I using this textbook? You know, what is the reason of this textbook? So, when I question that, I found the content and the material in this textbook is not appropriate. And, as a result, The class is sort of like, you know, feel, feeling, you know, it, it's a kind of, you know, meaningless.

Existence in the class. You're just going there and you're teaching the content, which you don't belong to, and then you are just, you know, getting out the class and it's, it's is a complete disconnect. So then I started like, you know, researching around this topic and, uh, I did my master's around the textbook and I found quite interesting, like, you know, information and, uh, the data is very, uh, what happens as a, as a, as a, as a, as a teacher.

When we are in the classroom and we are using textbook. There is a retrogression in terms of our agency. We are no more agent of change. As a teacher, we are agents of change. But once we are having this primer in our hand, we are speaking the language. which has been incorporated into this primer with the help of the forces.

So then what I did, I say, let me use the content. So what I use a content like the social media, that is my number one content. I use a popular media like newspaper and magazines. I use research paper, like, you know, those who are. Like, you know, well established research paper has been cited more than like, you know, 100 times or 2000 times that was that become my content as it became my content.

I realized that the the real knowledge lies in these areas. If you look at I was, let me just like, you know, connected here to the sociology of education perspective. See, sociology of education says. Whatever the textbooks are, and it's in the encyclopedia, whatever the textbooks are, they're just, you know, theoreticals, and they just present that theoretical concept.

If you want the real sociology, you find the social media, you go and see, and then you will get it. So that was my, like, you know, sort of light bulb moment for me. And I say, Oh, I think I better check like what is there. And then I started, you know, accumulating the content, like the, the reliable content.

It's not like, you know, anyone can post anything on the blog and I can just, you know, grab it. And then I'm giving to my student and it's my agenda. No, I got the responsible content and that responsible content is in social media. Like, uh, newspapers, especially when I talk about social media, I'm just talking about newspapers, newspapers, like, you know, magazines, well respected magazine, by the way, uh, and then I offered that, you know, content to my student.

So the textbook is, I think, is, is, is, is, is, is a very detrimental, uh, tool that is, uh, hindering the, the, the, the progress of, uh, students. And also it is sort of a cog in the machine in terms of higher education. 

[00:28:44] Elton Brown: One of the things that you are passionate about is reengaging rationalized immigrants into Canadian higher education. Can you talk to us a little bit about that, please? 

[00:28:57] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: So, uh, it's, let me just like, you know, go back and, uh, deliberate on my, my classes. So when I was in my, uh, classes, I was teaching, uh, my college student, I saw, uh, in the college there is a lack of representation of black student. Lack of representation of, you know, BIPOC student, I would say, you know, per se.

And, uh, for example, robotics, I didn't see any black student there, by the way. Robotics classes, I didn't see any. Uh, there are like, you know, you just have one or two student, okay. So, which is not, you know, indicative of the representation, by the way. It's just like, you know, someone knows. Then you, uh, come and then they come and then, you know, they got the admission.

So it's not like, you know, uh, an overall. So, so I started like, you know, looking the looking into the ways, like, how can I re engage those who are in other courses? And I asked them that, you know, it's better that you transfer your. Uh, like this course into like, for example, uh, the course which are demanding right now, very much, you know, in demand.

And, uh, for example, robotics is in high demand. Uh, also, uh, you know, you say mechatronics is, is in high demand. I taught that course biomedical engineering is in high demand. I couldn't find, I found lack of representation there. So I think it's, it's, it's very much important that like, you know, As, as, as colleges and universities are growing, they should also look into the ways to engage the marginalized youth and especially black, uh, and, uh, BIPOC student very much like, you know, into the system.

Now here's the very important thing. We should not, uh, we should not match. Or we should not mix the BIPOC student with international student. Okay, because international student, they are not living in Canada, they have the like in a study permit, and they have not as equal rights, like I would say because you know they are.

Uh, if you, if you, if you read like again and again, the, the things happening to international student, so, so, and they're like, you know, what is happening. This is one of the crisis of itself. By the way, they're coming for higher education and they're like, you're seeking the refugee status. So, so, so we should not mix.

This is something very important. We should know, just, just, just, just for the information. So if you're thinking that like, you know, you see everywhere, my, my, my type of faces, your type of faces might be the kid is coming from, you know, India or Nigeria or from any African country or from like, you know, uh, Pakistan or somewhere from like, you know, Middle East.

So they are just like our face. So they're international student environment. They're not like, you know. Okay, so we need to focus on that. You know, important thing that those who are living in Ontario, we should reengage them first and then try to find opportunities like, you know, for them to succeed in the market. 

[00:32:06] Rita Burke: I don't know about you, but even though I'm not going to be taking your course, your master class. I'm curious about it. Walk us through that masterclass that's coming up or that has started, please. 

[00:32:24] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Uh, it's the, this is the masterclass and this is called Empower Pen Writing Masterclass. Empower pen and this is class is going to start, uh, Monday, December 11th and 6 p.

m. And, um, and I'm just like, you know, walking you through what is in this master class. And I've got, uh, five sessions altogether. And they're spread across like, you know, every month there is one session and in that session, I'm going to structure the thoughts of the students. So let me just like, you know, quickly touch upon the first class.

What is the first class? The first class is all about, uh, I will discuss about writing is not for the sake of writing. Writing is basically for the sake of character building. So when you write, you're developing your character. That's a new perspective. Then in the second session, I will talk about autobiography and the structuring of thought.

So then again, I'm going to connect the dots, you know, from the last class. And I say, as you are developing your character, it's time for you to think about where you want to go. Okay, so it's, it's not about, you know, per se writing. It's about. Sort of giving them sort of vision that where you want to go.

And when we write, we structure ourselves. So, for example, the third session, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm talking about the, the importance of, you know, or the power of writing. Okay. And how can, how can they, uh, write through storytelling? And then, you know, I will explain, I will tell them my stories. That what happens to me, uh, when I am like, you know, not writing or what happened to me when I was in, like, you know, in my space and I was unable to express.

So writing is the right medium when people come and they express, you know, their, their ideas, then I'm, I'm talking about my four session. It is a bit, you know, complicated psychological, uh, sort of mind, uh, I'd say it's, you know, from entanglement to disentanglement. What is that? The human, complicated human psychology.

What happens like, you know, when we are writing, okay. And how are we going to regulate our emotion? Are we going to regulate our emotional, like a social aspect? So this is what exactly happened when we write. Okay. And writing is thinking on the paper. This is the last, uh, part, which is when you are writing, you're putting your thinking on the paper, which is like, you know, you are.

You're trying your level best to structure your career, your path for the future and for the way forward. 

[00:34:57] Elton Brown: I would agree with you totally on that. As a writer, I think, personally, I do a dump first. I just dump all of whatever it is. That's on my mind on a piece of paper, and then I go back and then I actually structure it in a way where people can understand it, at least I hope that they're able to, to understand it.

So I do see where that is an extremely important skill to have in whatever the profession you, you happen to be in. If you cannot to it. Uh, communicate well with the individuals you are working with, then you're, you're, you're going to be in, in trouble. I remember you talked about, um, incentives and programs that have shown you've actually helped people, especially the incarcerated. I guess that's the one that I'm most interested in right now. And do you have any positive stories where you were able to help an incarcerated individual, individuals transition into a higher education and achieve academic success?

[00:36:13] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: So, so I have like, you know, in my classes when I teach, I have got like a student, you know, uh, they have different, but this master class is just like, you know, started. So I'm like, you know, planning to have a fruitful conversation. And I'm planning to have fruitful, you know, results, uh, out of this masterclass.

And I have students like, you know, from different backgrounds in this, in this class. So I can like, you know, I can easily, uh, help and I can, and I have the, like, you know, track record. When people come to my classes, okay, and then they have got these backgrounds. Uh, so because of the confidentiality reason, I cannot talk about more.

But I do have, uh, data which shows that, you know, when you purposefully engage youth, okay, they are successful. They are successful. It's not like, you know, you become disengaged with them and then like, you know, you, you are, uh, leaving them to their tender mercies. No, when you, once you purposefully engage, uh, with them, they are successful.

And, and the data is, uh, very clear. Uh, if you look at the, uh, Ontario justice system, okay. Uh, if, if you, if you look at the, the, the way, like, you know, uh, people have been implicated here. So, so I think it's, it's better that we should focus more on the individuals and we should like, you know, focus on their abilities rather than like, you know, their, their mindset, what they are doing.

And, and, and I have my student, you know, those who are in the higher education right now, and they are living, like, like living successful lives, by the way, after graduating. And, uh,

[00:37:58] Rita Burke: It seems to me as if you're really committed to student success, and I, I'm very, very impressed with that approach to education.

What would you say is the best piece of counselor advice you have ever been given? 

[00:38:18] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Oh, let's see as a as a teacher. And I think you're also you were also a professor. You know, we have got lots of stories to share. And I had my one Latino student and he was in my class and he faced sort of like, you know, bullying in the class.

And he was very committed and, uh, let me get back, like, I will come back to the point of advice. Let me just share this anecdote. And, uh, he was severely bullied by, uh, you know, his classmates, his peers. And he came up to me and I, I said, like, what is happening with you? He said, uh, I think I might drop the course.

I said, no, you should not drop the course. I said, I might drop the whole program. And he was really brilliant. He was in robotics and he was the only Latina. Okay, let you know. And I said, like, no, you should know, like, what is the point? He said, no. Then he sent me a broken email. His language was not good, but his expressions were all there.

I can read everything, every single word. And I can easily visualize, you know, what he has gone through. So then I asked him to again connect to the, you know, people in the college. And I say, you go there, meet them. Like, you know, try to voice your concern. And then he came back to me and said, the best thing you could do, or you have done, that you wrote.

Once you know how to write, even if it is broken, it will give you structure. And what I always advise my student, that you need to know one thing, nobody is going to replace you until you are willing to replace yourself. You should know that you are irreplaceable and think about your family, think about your like, you know, people around you, those who are in your, in your, like, you know, circle, do you think that, you know, you are, uh, doing service to them or you're doing disservice to them, why you're here?

So then he started questioning his existence. He say, so I try to like, you know, create sort of, uh, emotional, uh, aspect. And then the social aspect and in their personality, and that's why I always give my student. So now let me come back to the advice piece. This is what exactly I told him. And I told my all students that see, the change is hard and the progress is joyous.

So if you want the change, and if you want to rejoice, you have to like, you know, break your comfort zone. And if you break your comfort zone right now, okay, the more suffering you have right now, the more prosperous life you will be in, you will be having in the future. So that's why I always, you know, offer my student.

[00:41:26] Elton Brown: So, in other words, you tell them to ease into the pain. 

[00:41:29] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Exactly. Exactly. It's really best, you know, best for them. You're right. Ease. 

[00:41:35] Elton Brown: So you also talk about the methodology that's employed in the study, particularly using secondary data analysis and Bernstein's theoretical lens of Elaborate code and restricted code.

How does all of that mesh together in order to help students move in a positive direction? 

[00:41:59] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Okay, so that's good. Let me just like, you know, go back and a bit quickly talk about Bernstein. Bernstein, like, he was in, uh, London, uh, UK. And, uh, in, in 60s, he conducted the studies that a student from the rich background, okay, they speak more.

A student from the, uh, poor background, they speak less. That was sort of like, you know, and that's how he said, those who speak more, uh, it's in a, in a simple way, it's, uh, restricted. And, and he talked about the elaborate code, which means like, you know, the elaborate more. So from the rich neighborhoods.

Students have tendencies to elaborate more and from the poor neighborhood, a student have tendency to restrict their, you know, uh, communication patterns. So then I, I, I was reading that, you know, piece and I, I applied that piece into my student. I say, let me just look at that. And I think it's absolutely right theory that if you know more.

You will talk more. If you don't know, you will be silent. Okay. So then I started developing sort of like, you know, their mindset that how can you like, you know, talk. And again, in within the communication, as I told you earlier, there are so many steps and there's so many nuances involved. Okay. Is it a cultural communication?

Is it, uh, is it, is it, uh, a technical communication and technical communication? You know what it means. It means like, you know, your subject is specific. It can be from mathematics. It can be from, you know, computer science. It can be from nursing. It can be from a teacher's education. It can be like, you name it.

Okay. And within that thing, like, you know, what sort of things you are going through or what sort of, what is your reading list by the way? And if your reading list is quite rich, Okay, within that tactical field, I think you will be a great thinker. You will be a great writer. You will be a great like, you know, uh, employee in the future.

But if you have got like, you know, restricted within that, like, you know, particular, uh, symmetry, if you have got restricted, like, you know, reading list, then again, you will be a poor communicator. So I applied all these theories into my, Like, you know, classes. And I say, let me just figure it out. And I found out, like, you know, when, as we as teachers, we have to find these nuances and we have to offer the class these, uh, uh, you know, answers so that you know, I know like, you know, they, they, they, they, they are unable to find, but we have to offer them as, as, as faculty.

And the answer is not in the textbook. By the way. The answer is. Uh, in like, you know, your reading list, as I told you, so if you want to be a very contemplative thinker or contemplative, you know, writer or teacher, you have to extend your knowledge base. Now, you know, your knowledge base is not like you go in the class and you just have the textbook and you offer and then you come back, you say, you know, I'm done with my work.

No, it's not like that. You have to explore new avenues. You have to explore new knowledge areas so that you can offer them. Then like, you know, that will be a successful, and if your student are successful, you are successful. 

[00:45:16] Rita Burke: That is so true it's because of them that you are there. 

[00:45:22] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:45:23] Rita Burke: So ultimately what you're saying is if they're successful, you're successful. So today on SpeakUP! International, we're speaking with Mr. Saeed Ali Naser, and he's an educator. He is an advocate and he believes passionately. about higher education. So I'd like for you to tell us, to tell our listeners then, who or what is responsible for the person that you are today?

[00:45:52] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Oh, that's a good question. First of all, I would say my father. I'm very much inspired, you know, by his teachings. My mother. And then my study supervisor. I think he has impacted a lot. Dr. Andrew Allen. He has shaped me who I am right now and the way like, you know, and I really associate my success to him.

And obviously like, you know, my father was a person who always wanted me to be. Uh, like, you know, talk about it because all parents want so, uh, I was like, you know, and then he is giving his books to me and read. So my father is always there, my mother, but, uh, I think, uh, as a, as a, as an educator, I think, uh, my, my study supervisor.

Dr. Andrew Allen is really much important in this journey, and he has really shaped me who I am right now, and my advocacy, my, uh, we co teach, by the way. Sometimes he comes to my classes, you know, and this is, this is what he has offered me, and I am trying to, uh, like, offer to my student what he has taught me. 

[00:47:02] Elton Brown: How has the storytelling help the reengaged rationalize youth? 

[00:47:09] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Okay. So, if you if you look at from the perspective of storytelling, I think if we will reengaged rationalize you? Uh, tell our stories to our students and our genuine stories, they won't be able to, uh, be successful.

So we have to, uh, and it's, it's very much important because, uh, when we tell them stories in our classes, what will happen, okay, and what's going to happen, they will, you know, uh, listen to us. And they will reengage with the society. Okay. In a very positive way. But if you're not going to tell them the, the stories that we have gone through the real stories, like, for example, if I may think about my arrival to Canada, okay, which is I came.

I stayed in a hotel. I don't like, you know, I stayed there and it was, and then it's such a whole story. Like, you know, I, I, when I reflected, you know, and I remember like, you know, when you might have come to Canada, what was your situation? So when we tell about that, you know, if I can be successful in these circumstances, why not you, by the way?

Okay. I have gone through all this, you know, ups and downs and I have seen all the, so this is the most important part of the story. And, you know, storytelling is something. And it really, uh, triggers, it really, you know, triggers glimmers of hope in a student. When you relate, when you, when you relate your stories to them, when you tell them and, and it's very, and I think it's from the neuroscience perspective, it's very, very like, you know, uh, very, uh, evidence based.

It says, uh, when we tell our student, like, you know, what we have gone through, okay, we break the myth. For example, if I'll tell my student, you know what, writing is something big, or writing is like, you know, impossible task, they will say, Oh, it's impossible. So why should I do, they will give up. But if I'll try to create sort of atmosphere, a conducive atmosphere, you know, offer them I'll tell you know what, writing, it's a process.

It's not a product. Okay. If you're looking for a product, you go and buy the textbook or you buy other books. You just forget about them, then don't write anything. So if you want to be a writer, you become, first of all, a great thinker. Read more, read more. And then once you read more, then you write. Then you put your thinking on the paper.

So it's a whole process. Also, I relate my, like, you know, journey to them. I say, If you want to be a writer, it's not like, you know, it's, it's not one or two day process, it's a time, like, it's, it's time consuming process. And, uh, you have to show your perseverance in this process of writing because writing is going to put you on the right path at the end of the day.

[00:49:58] Elton Brown: You have definitely, uh, shown us the way that you go about helping your students find their voice and where they can go to proj to project it. You are so passionate about your students, Canadian and the international students. Your masterclass empowers. students so that they find a way to prepare their thoughts, ready them in order to, uh, project them.

 The most important thing out of this conversation is talking about encouraging the students to find avenues and paths in order to upgrade their education and find support. I really thank you so much. for joining us, uh, today. And I hope that we get to an opportunity to talk to you again in the future.

[00:50:56] Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi PhD: Thank you very much. And it was a pleasure meeting both of you, Rita and Elton. And I'm glad that, you know, I came to the program and I voice, uh, my, uh, issues. Now it's not issues like, you know, my, my talk and, uh, that's really great to connect with you. And thank you very much for this opportunity.

[00:51:17] Elton Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi please leave your name, your email address, and the reason why you wished you contacts Syed Ali Nasir Zaidi to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 

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